Ercoupe

[goinaround]

I have the opportunity to buy 1\3 share in an ercoupe. lots of documentation, owned by an A&p. I don't know the model right this moment though I have that. It is a 1946 w\rudder pedals. It is supposed to be recertified?? lsa.
THOUGHTS

[Daidalos]

Only the model 415C and 415CD are LSA eligible. Some have STC's for a weight increase to 1320lbs. Most don't have rudder pedels and have fabric wings. They came with 75, 85 and 90 hp engines. Some have a mod to 100hp.

Make sure to check on AD's. With an aircraft built in 1946 there are many. Corrosion problems are common. There is a Yahoo group you should join and ask the owners there. There is also an Ercoupe site.

Yahoo Groups
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=ercoupe

Ercoupe Owners Club
http://www.ercoupe.org/

[drseti]

Decades ago, there was an STC available from Univair to raise the maximum gross weight of Ercoupe 415Cs and CDs to 1400 pounds. A very large number of these early 'Coupes complied. Unfortunately, this permanently removes them from Sport Pilot eligibility (which, of course, didn't exist at the time the planes were modified). So, do check the logbooks and 337s very carefully to make sure your plane is indeed unmodified.

Minor clarification -- it is not possible to register a Part 23 certified aircraft as an LSA. It will have a Standard Airworthiness Certificate, and may be Sport Pilot eligible.

I had the pleasure of instructing in 'Coupes in the early 1980s. For years, I was a member of the Ercoupe Owner's Club. I highly recommend it (there's a ton of useful stuff in their newsletter, and in the Members Only section of their website). One of my students bought a Sport Pilot eligible 415C last Autumn. I'm really enjoying instructing him in it.

[goinaround]

This is an 85 horse metal not fabric and corrosion problems (all ad's?) have been complied with I believe. The Stc may have been done it's something I must check on.
What must be done to insure it is SP eligible?
I realize I have alot of homework to do yet. thanks
It is a c model.
I tried to post a pic but couldn't.

[zdc]

This is an 85 horse metal not fabric and corrosion problems (all ad's?) have been complied with I believe. The Stc may have been done it's something I must check on.
What must be done to insure it is SP eligible?
I realize I have alot of homework to do yet. thanks
It is a c model.
I tried to post a pic but couldn't.

I did a couple of years ago what you want to do now. I called the FSDO, and the specialist did an acft records search. You can obtain these documents for a fee if you want to see them yourself. Sure enough, there was a 337 on file for a gross weight increase above 1320.

[bryancobb]

If it's got metal wings...you cannot fly it with a sport license.

[Daidalos]

If it's got metal wings...you cannot fly it with a sport license.

Really, why??? That is news to me, can you please educate me?

[drseti]

If it's got metal wings...you cannot fly it with a sport license.

I beg to differ, Bryan. The wing metallization STC and the gross weight increase STC are two entirely different documents. You can do one without the other (or the other without the one). I have studied every page of the Univair metal wing STC. There is nothing at all in it (taken individually) that would in any way compromise Sport Pilot eligibility.

The problem is that metal wings add about 40 pounds to the aircraft's empty weight (you have to re-weigh the aircraft to get the exact number for a given plane,l or weigh the wings before and after the mod), so most of the folks who did this mod (back in the 1950s and 60s) did indeed go for the gross weight increase at the same time. It made sense back then, since there was no Sport Pilot rule to worry about. Thus, nearly all metal-wing 'Coupes are not Sport Pilot eligible. But, there are a few out there that have metal wings, and still have the original 1260 pound maximum gross weight.

Let's run the numbers: An all-original Ercoupe 415C, with the Continental 75 engine, original single wing tank, small (5 1/2) gal header tank, no rudder pedals, and no radios, will weigh about 770 pounds empty. It has a max gross weight of 1260, which gives a useful load of 490 pounds. Now, with metal wings, its empty weight goes up to 810 pounds, reducing useful load to 450. Throw in a bigger engine (most have been upgraded by now), a second wing tank (most pilots want more fuel capacity), and some radios, and you have an 840 pound aircraft with only 420 pounds useful load. You can see why most of the metal-wing 'Coupe owners opted for the gross weight increase.

There is another way to improve the situation, if you have a metal-wing 'Coupe that is still Sport Pilot eligible. Univair now has a different gross weight STC available, that takes it up to exactly 1320. (This was done in response to the LSA rule, of course). A well-equipped, metal-wing 415C with this STC complied with (and no history of ever having been a 1400 pound plane) will now have a useful load of 480 pounds, with is on a par with many LSAs.

BTW, to verify the legality of all this, do check with Univair, as they own both the original Erco type certificate and all of the STCs.

[bryancobb]

Paul,

I knew you were an Ercoupe aficionado, so with much more knowledge than I have, I KNOW you are right.

In PRACTICAL terms though, there is a less than 1% chance in a Sport Pilot stumbling upon a metal wing Ercoupe that he can legally fly.

So that's why I made it simple and said "If it has metal wings, a Sport Pilot can't fly it."

[drseti]

What must be done to insure it is SP eligible?

Funny you should ask. I'm working right now on an article for one of the aviation magazines, titled "Sport Pilot's Guide to Flying the 'Coupe". Since publication is still several months away, I'll give you the highlights:

(1) Do spend $50 and join the Ercoupe Owner's Club. There's a ton of useful information in its restricted web pages. Download and read the technical articles in every online issue of Coupe Capers. Check the online listing for experienced Ercoupe instructors and mechanics in your area.

(2) Order the data CD from FAA on any aircraft that makes your short list of candidates. It costs only $10. Go through every STC and 337 in it (or hire a qualified mechanic to do so), looking for anything that would compromise Sport Pilot eligibility. Remember that once a plane has been taken out of compliance, it can never be reverted.

(3) If you find a plane for which the FAA record check turns up no red flags, hire a knowledgeable 'Coupe mechanic to inspect the logbooks. Look for compliance with all ADs (including the Swiss-cheese mod to cut dozens of inspection holes in the bottom of the wing, and the main-spar mandatory corrosion check). This will take the mechanic two or three hours, for which you'll have to pay, but is money well invested.

(4) If the logbook check turns up no red flags, get a flight in the plane. See if the present owner will take you up, or will let you go up with a qualified instructor (or will maybe take your instructor up). Do a thorough evaluation flight -- see how the plane trims out, do steep turns hands-off, check the rate of climb, pull it up into what passes for a stall in an Ercoupe, do some 75 MPH power-off glides to see the rate of descent, etc. Try not to damage the floorboards stomping around looking for rudder pedals.

(5) At this point, you should be ready to make the seller a conditional offer. Come to an agreement on a price you will pay if the plane is found fully airworthy in a pre-purchase inspection. You can be sure there will be squawks found -- there always are. The normal arrangement is that you will be responsible for correcting those that are not immediate airworthiness concerns (but can use them as a basis for renegotiating the price). The seller will be responsible for clearing all major airworthiness issues, at his or her expense. If the seller declines to correct those, the deal can be called off (but you are within rights to then ask the seller to reimburse you for the mechanic's fee about to be incurred in Step 6).

(6) After the evaluation flight, the engine will be warmed up. Have your hired mechanic do a compression check, and a pre-purchase inspection. Make sure the main spar gets inspected. (One of my students bought a 415C with metal wings, and found on inspection that the spar had been nicked during compliance with the Swiss-cheese AD!) Make sure the center section of the spar is accessible, and checked. Expect to pay for three more hours of mechanic's time, and be prepared to walk away from the aircraft if things don't look good.

(7) If nothing negative was found, and unless the plane has had an annual inspection within the previous six months, you might want to consider having your hired mechanic continue beyond the pre-purchase inspection, into a full annual inspection (this can only be done if your mechanic has an IA rating). Alternatively, you might be able to negotiate with the seller up-front for a fresh annual to be included in the purchase price (or split between you).

(8 ) As simple as the 'Coupe is to fly, and no matter how experienced you are as a pilot, recognize that these are unique machines with some atypical flight characteristics. Once you buy the plane, make sure you get plenty of instruction from someone with considerable Ercoupe time.

(9) Because these are 65 year old antiques, anticipate some ongoing maintenance costs, and be sure you've left yourself a reasonable cash reserve to deal with them.

(10) Fly the hell out of the machine, wearing the trademark Ercoupe owner's grin!

[drseti]

there is a less than 1% chance in a Sport Pilot stumbling upon a metal wing Ercoupe that he can legally fly.

I don't doubt your odds estimate, Bryan, so your generalization was justifiable (even though we both know that all generalizations are false -- absolutely!)

My student Art lucked out, and found one of those rare one percent-ers:

[bryancobb]

Without spending $600, if it has rag-wings...isn't it always legal for a Sport Pilot to fly?

[drseti]

Without spending $600, if it has rag-wings...isn't it always legal for a Sport Pilot to fly?

No, quite a few of the 415Cs kept the fabric wing, but did the gross weight increase STC. And, many of the 415Ds were built with fabric wings, but came from the factory with the higher gross weight. So, at the very least, one has to spend $10 on the FAA CD.

[goinaround]

Trying to confuse me with the facts
the only documentation I have seen lists gw @1260, I've alot to learn, thanks

[jnmeade]

My student Art lucked out, and found one of those rare one percent-ers:

Was that photo taken at Spruce Creek?