E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Are you building/buying/flying an Experimental Amateur-Built (E-AB) or Experimental Light Sport (E-LSA) aircraft? Converting an S-LSA to E-LSA? Changing or adding equipment, or otherwise modifying an S-LSA? Need help with Letters of Authorization? Or maybe designing your own aircraft? This forum is the place to discuss All Things Experimental.

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Jfly67
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E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby Jfly67 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:57 pm

Would it be legal to build a E-AB that's not specifically built to be LSA compliant but register it and operate it with in the LSA rules ? How does that work can you put limitations so it can only be operated to meet LSA requirements.

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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby 3Dreaming » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:14 pm

Jfly67 wrote:Would it be legal to build a E-AB that's not specifically built to be LSA compliant but register it and operate it with in the LSA rules ? How does that work can you put limitations so it can only be operated to meet LSA requirements.


It doesn't matter if the design wasn't intended to be a LSA, as long as it meets the CFR 1.1 definition of a light sport aircraft you will be good to go, if it doesn't you are not.

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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby Jfly67 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:57 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
Jfly67 wrote:Would it be legal to build a E-AB that's not specifically built to be LSA compliant but register it and operate it with in the LSA rules ? How does that work can you put limitations so it can only be operated to meet LSA requirements.


It doesn't matter if the design wasn't intended to be a LSA, as long as it meets the CFR 1.1 definition of a light sport aircraft you will be good to go, if it doesn't you are not.


Can I build an aircraft that was designed to be flown at say 1540 lbs gross and 130 kts and operate it at 1320 lbs and a maximum of 120 its would that be legal ? 2 seats of course

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drseti
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby drseti » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:00 pm

Some of the critical FAR 1.1 specifications (two seats maximum, single reciprocating engine, fixed landing gear, fixed pitch prop, etc.) are physical - no matter how you build an E-AB, it will either meet them or it won't.

Others are operations related. Vh, for example, is defined at maximum continuous power. If the acft operating limits approved by your DAR are low enough, you can throttle anything back far enough not to exceed the 120 knot limit (but, to stay legal, you have to respect that max continuous power limit. The only way to make sure of that is to install a throttle stop that won't let you exceed 120 kts.).

And then, there are those specs that affect one another. An aircraft may meet the 45 knot calibrated clean stall speed limit, for example, only at a max gross weight somewhere below the otherwise allowed 1320 pound max gross weight. So, your operating limitations must be adjusted to make sure all the FAR 1.1 conditions are met.

In the final analysis, it will be up to your DAR to determine if the operating limits you assign to a home built will be reasonable, and will allow the aircraft to be operated under Sport Pilot rules.

If you start playing with the operating limits in order to force a plane into LSA compliance, you'd better know something about the engineering and aerodynamics you're messing with. Otherwise, in making one spec comply, you could end up making another one deviate from the limits (with a very real possibility of degrading safety of flight).
:twisted:
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:20 am

drseti wrote:If the acft operating limits approved by your DAR are low enough, you can throttle anything back far enough not to exceed the 120 knot limit (but, to stay legal, you have to respect that max continuous power limit. The only way to make sure of that is to install a throttle stop that won't let you exceed 120 kts.).


I was under the impression that some planes - the Carbon Cub, for instance - got away with just placards or instrument markings to achieve that end.

Am I wrong?
Fast Eddie B.
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby drseti » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:04 am

They've gotten away with it so far, Eddie. I wouldn't want to be either the company or the pilot when there's an accident, and the NTSB investigators check the wreckage and find the throttle in the full power position!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:41 am

FastEddieB wrote:
drseti wrote:If the acft operating limits approved by your DAR are low enough, you can throttle anything back far enough not to exceed the 120 knot limit (but, to stay legal, you have to respect that max continuous power limit. The only way to make sure of that is to install a throttle stop that won't let you exceed 120 kts.).


I was under the impression that some planes - the Carbon Cub, for instance - got away with just placards or instrument markings to achieve that end.

Am I wrong?


The placard on the Carbon Cub was not about keeping it within any of the LSA limitations. It was for compliance with ASTM standards.

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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:47 am

drseti wrote: If the acft operating limits approved by your DAR are low enough, you can throttle anything back far enough not to exceed the 120 knot limit (but, to stay legal, you have to respect that max continuous power limit. The only way to make sure of that is to install a throttle stop that won't let you exceed 120 kts.).


The DAR DOES NOT SETany performance limitations on an experimental amateur built aircraft.

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Warmi
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby Warmi » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:53 am

I would think even with the Titan 180hp engine Carbon Cubs won’t be busting any LSA speed limits anytime soon :-)
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designrs
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby designrs » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:29 pm

Great input by all.

Now, let’s further complicate the issue in regard to who is operating the plane.

For example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with lighting for operation at night.
2) The POH and the operating limitations say that the aircraft may be operated at night.

A pilot operating under Sport Pilot rules may not fly at night.
However, a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges may fly the aircraft at night.

Second example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with a motor and prop that can cruise at 132 kts in level flight.
2) The aircraft is placard limited to 120 kts for LSA operation.

Can a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges legally fly the aircraft at 132 kts in continuous level flight?
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Warmi
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby Warmi » Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:21 pm

designrs wrote:Great input by all.

Now, let’s further complicate the issue in regard to who is operating the plane.

For example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with lighting for operation at night.
2) The POH and the operating limitations say that the aircraft may be operated at night.

A pilot operating under Sport Pilot rules may not fly at night.
However, a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges may fly the aircraft at night.

Second example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with a motor and prop that can cruise at 132 kts in level flight.
2) The aircraft is placard limited to 120 kts for LSA operation.

Can a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges legally fly the aircraft at 132 kts in continuous level flight?


I would think he/she cannot - that’s the limitation of the plane and how it was certified.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:15 pm

designrs wrote:Great input by all.

Now, let’s further complicate the issue in regard to who is operating the plane.

For example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with lighting for operation at night.
2) The POH and the operating limitations say that the aircraft may be operated at night.

A pilot operating under Sport Pilot rules may not fly at night.
However, a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges may fly the aircraft at night.

Second example:
1) A LSA Aircraft is equipped with a motor and prop that can cruise at 132 kts in level flight.
2) The aircraft is placard limited to 120 kts for LSA operation.

Can a pilot operating under Private Pilot privileges legally fly the aircraft at 132 kts in continuous level flight?


Two things: First there is nothing illegal about an LSA cruising at 132 kts. What is illegal is calling an airplane a LSA if the speed at maximum continuous power under standard conditions at sea level is over 120 kts. There may be other than standard conditions that might allow the airplane to cruise faster, like flying at a higher density altitude with a turbo charged engine.

Second you can't just put a placard on saying not to exceed 120 kts. The limitation is 120 kts at maximum continuous power, so calculations and flight testing would need to be done to establish this power setting, and then you place a placard not to exceed XXX RPM except for takeoff and climb or something to that effect. Now if a pilot chooses to exceed that RPM limit it is not a sport pilot verse private pilot privilege thing.

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designrs
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby designrs » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:13 pm

3Dreaming wrote:. Now if a pilot chooses to exceed that RPM limit it is not a sport pilot verse private pilot privilege thing.


Good point. Thanks.
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby drseti » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:26 am

3Dreaming wrote:The DAR DOES NOT SETany performance limitations on an experimental amateur built aircraft.


OK. Having never built or licensed an E-AB, I'll plead ignorance here - but doesn't the DAR have to sign off on the operating limitations set by the builder? Or is that done by the FSDO?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
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3Dreaming
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Re: E-AB AS A SPORT PILOT

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:06 am

drseti wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:The DAR DOES NOT SETany performance limitations on an experimental amateur built aircraft.


OK. Having never built or licensed an E-AB, I'll plead ignorance here - but doesn't the DAR have to sign off on the operating limitations set by the builder? Or is that done by the FSDO?


He does, but the operating limitations don't deal with actual aircraft limitations like operating limitations on a standard category aircraft. The operating limitations will state how to deal with phase 1 and 2 operations, what to do if you make a major change to the aircraft, airspace operation restrictions, how it is going to be maintained, passenger warnings, placards, ect. Remember when a DAR looks at the airplane it has not even flown yet. None of the actual aircraft performance numbers have even been determined by flight testing.


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