B/C/D class endorsement - suggestions for a training plan?

[ArionAv8or]

I can't wait for this

:::sitting beside garrett with popcorn in hand:::

[drseti]

Actually, that's the process for ordering fuel at Atlantic Aviation. Line up and wait... and wait... and wait...

[ibgarrett]

Sorta like putting fuel into a Remos... one teaspoon at a time (so it doesn't back up and flow out)....

[drseti]

Sorta like putting fuel into a Remos... one teaspoon at a time

Yes, but the Remos flies 20 nautical miles on that teaspoon!

[ibgarrett]

True - and with two teaspoons you'll get your 1/2 hr of reserve time...

[tu16]

... since it is my airplane that you are renting I think I do have the right to know where you are going, so I know where to start looking if you don't come back. Tom

:) I think I'd go further and would install a SpiderTracks in my airplane (if I ever bought it and rented it out :) ) Then I'd know at all times where my plane is or was...

[3Dreaming]

... since it is my airplane that you are renting I think I do have the right to know where you are going, so I know where to start looking if you don't come back. Tom

I think I'd go further and would install a SpiderTracks in my airplane (if I ever bought it and rented it out ) Then I'd know at all times where my plane is or was...

Most of the LSA's have GPS's with bread crumbs. You can look to see where they have been. If the bread crumbs have been deleted then you really need to worry.

[3Dreaming]

I'll give you 3 that come to mind.
The first is not that bad. A young fellow back home from the military check out in the Warrior. Takes his buddies for a ride, and does some low level passes down the lake. I had a call before they got back to the airport.
Number 2. Guy from a local construction crew needs to go home to sign some papers during his lunch hour. A 15 minute flight or just over an hour drive. He uses the same Warrior to make the trip. On return he buzzes the construction site and pulls up for a victory roll. I looked the airplane over real close after that one.
Numbre 3. This happened at the airport which I am at now. A local guy that used to help out with single engine charter here at the local airport would rent the Cherokee six, Lance, or Saratoga every once in a while for a trip to Florida. This went on for yaers until one time he didn't return. When the police started to investigate they found out he was involved in drugs. Years later when they foumd the airplane in the mountains in Tenn. it had a water bed tied into the fuel system, and the tach unhooked. It looks like most of his trips were a whole bunch longer that he was paying for.

[tu16]

Most of the LSA's have GPS's with bread crumbs. You can look to see where they have been. If the bread crumbs have been deleted then you really need to worry.

That would work fine too. Provided that you already have got your plane back. With Spidertracks though - you just open up a web page - and here it is now. So when you start to worry where is that plane that is due back, you at least can immediately find out where on earth it is now. I think it also may have a "locked" mode in which the pilot can not disable it, short of pulling the fuse on the panel. This, of course, also has a potential to turn your own family into another "Radio" accepting flight plan, watching over closing and stream of automatic en route position reports on your own flights :)

[zaitcev]

Actually, that's the process for ordering fuel at Atlantic Aviation. Line up and wait... and wait... and wait...

We have both Atlantic and Cutter and I'm based on the Cutter side. Our fuel truck arrives in 5 minutes at the most. But for some reason lots of GA people end at Atlantic. Maybe they build up a system of loyalty incentives?

This is kind of stuff a normal LSA pilot would not care about, unless he/she starts using that D/C/B endorsement for real.

[tu16]

Hi, I have a question for experienced aviators here regarding radio work in complex airspaces.

How do you coordinate/arrange for heading changes in transition of two adjacent class D airspaces? Any tips?

Here's what I mean: I have come up with an intended flight plan for my next exercise with CFI to work on this endorsement in SeaTac area (click this long link: http://skyvector.com/?ll=47.47231741065 ... 9:V.K1.PAE for a TAC with intended flight plan to appear)

The flight takes off from RNT, requesting "SeaTac Crossing" from the ground. Ground comes back with a squawk and Seatttle Tower frequency to switch to when instructed. Shortly after takeff RNT directs freq. change to Seattle Tower. Seattle Tower clears the west turn and crossing over south/north threshold at 1500' via VFR transition route. Normally you'd continue into the Sound to Vashon out of their class D airspace. (and that is current plan for the flight)

My question is what if I want to get the most scenic flight out of this ;) and want to turn NNW at 1500' along the shoreline toward Alki Point - outside of the SFC class B, but still in Seattle Class D airspace and then - trasitioning through Boeing Field (BFI) Class D? What is an optimal way to achieve this?

At what point the Seattle Tower needs to be informed about intention to turn ~90deg right to NNW heading in their class D airspace and to make transition through BFI Class D airspace? (On initial contact?) Would I have enough time to request transition from BFI while in Seattle Class D? Is there a way to simplify the situation - maybe contacting Seattle Approach at RNT to get a squawk and let them coordinate class D transitions (although official procedures call for contacting Tower rather than Approach for "Seatac crossing" VFR transition from Renton)?

Any tips/suggestions woud be highly appreciated!

[bryancobb]

I'm sure you are aware that you must be Mode-C Transponder equipped for this entire flight.

I have done similar flights in the Atlanta area several times. I never was on a tower frequency except briefly while taking off and landing. The rest of the time, the approach controller had me.

A couple of things to be aware of. Big jets are typically "in on 45's" and "out on 90's." Based on Seattle's geometry, I think thats true there. What that means to you is ... Any scenic route you desire, that will put you in the descent path or within distance minimums of a jet coming in, WILL NOT BE ALLOWED. They are descending, inbound on 045, 135, 235, and 315. Departing ones will be climbing out on 000, 090, 180, and 270.

Another thing. The approach controller IS NOT going to let you cross the numbers of Seattle International, perpendicular as you show. He will take you directly over the middle of the runway where there are no planes. They are on the ground there. There is a Magic Secret altitude that this crossing will occur at -- In Atlanta, it's 5,500 MSL -- If you know it, you'll get the VFR transition. If you don't, you won't. Talk to some pilots who are familiar with Seattle airspace and they will let you know this unpublished altitude.

When you takeoff, after the tower controller gives you to approach, tell approach on initial contact... "Seattle Approach, Blinker 1234, with you at one thousand fife hundred, climbing to __________" insert secret altitude here. That alone, tells the controller "Blinker is familiar with this airspace so I'll let him have a VFR transition."

[tu16]

Thanks, Bryan for your input!

Of course, you're right - Mode-C transponder is required.

Procedure to request VFR transitions probably depends on situation and local procedures.

In RNT, being very close to SEA, Gnd provides a shortcut - they contact SEA and obtain a squawk for west VFR transition before the takeoff on a ground and RNT Tower hands off you to SEA Tower shortly after takeoff as soon as traffic separation allows. SEA Tower does indeed customarily directs VFR SFC transition over LANDING active threshold of somewhat shorter Center runway at 1,500' - which would be inset a bit deeper to a center on a longest runway.

My question though was about the route outside of SEA Class B airspace after VFR Class B transition is over - once you out of the Class B SFC area at 1,500' over the water you're still in the SEA Tower Class D for some time. That's where I'd want to turn right and follow a shoreline over the water to Alki Point which would require:

1. Heading change in SEA Class D toward adjacent BFI Class D
2. Transition through BFI Class D.

Considering that the intended heading change is very close to SEA/BFI Class D boundary doing this by talking to two towers in sequence is iffy at best and doesn't leave much time for ATC to react (positively ;) ). On the other hand they (I think) use common radar facilities, I already had a current squawk through Class B assigned to me - it seems there should be an easier for everybody way to attempt to negotiate this Class D turn and cross-transition - possibly on initial handoff to SEA Tower by RNT? Or, maybe, even through RNT Ground before takeoff?

Just curious if there's a generic best way to try to do that. Certainly, it is much easier just to get the **** outta there and not be in need to talk to everybody while attempting to fly the route you really wanted. And I'd most likely do exactly that on my own... :) But that's not the point of this particular exercise.... ;)

[bryancobb]

I am not familiar with local procedures, of course, since I live about a million miles from there in Georgia... but I still feel that RAPCON will handle you the whole time, once you are handed to them after takeoff.
This is not just wile you are in the Class B, but after leaving too.

Atlanta approach can pick me up at my home airport, 45 miles out, and weave me in and out through the assorted Class D in the vicinity, without me changing to any frequencis other than the 4 approach control frequencies.

[tu16]

I am not familiar with local procedures, of course, since I live about a million miles from there in Georgia... but I still feel that RAPCON will handle you the whole time, once you are handed to them after takeoff.
This is not just wile you are in the Class B, but after leaving too.

Atlanta approach can pick me up at my home airport, 45 miles out, and weave me in and out through the assorted Class D in the vicinity, without me changing to any frequencis other than the 4 approach control frequencies.

Thanks, Bryan - I'm indeed interested in application of general principles here rather than in details of local procedures.

True, flight following in ARTCC system should automaticaly clear you to transit all intermediate class D spaces. And Seattle TA is no exception to this.

I guess I'm just not sure how Class B transition and Seattle Tower that controls it fit into this straightforward picture. Tower, I'd think, doesn't normally provide long-range traffic advisories/flight following. Is picking up a flight following from Departure (or Tower?) is needed to make the turn inside SEA Class D and transition through BFI Class D?

Here's an approximate transcript as recalled by one blogger of the Seatac VFR west transition from RNT ( I think he may forgot to mention that the Tower had magic words "cleared to Class B" added... ) :

RNT Ground, Cessna 733XW at BEFA, Taxi for West Departure with Bravo.
3XW, Taxi 15.

Ground, 3XW, I've not done the VFR transition through SEATAC before, can you advise?
3XW, standby and I'll tell you everything you need to know...

3XW, Ground, Squawk 4775 and dial in Seattle tower on 119.9. After takeoff climb to 1500' and maintain south we will advise when to change frequency to Seattle tower. Seattle tower will give you instructions on making the transition.

Thanks for the help, this is 3XW.

I roll to hold-short line.

Rnt Tower, 3XW holding short 15 for west departure.
3XW, Cleared for immediate takeoff, 15.
Cleared for immediate takeoff, 3XW.

After I cross the fence on departure, I hear.

3XW, approved for frequency change to 119.9, your descretion.

Thanks for the help, have a good day, 3XW.
Seattle Tower, Cessna 733XW, listening on 119.9.

Cessna 3XW, Seattle Tower, maintain 1500 and turn heading of West to cross north end of field.
3XW will maintain 1500 and cross north end.

A couple miles past the rwy, I hear.

3XW, Seattle tower, I see you 2 miles west at 1500, squawk VFR and have a good day.
Thanks for the help and have a good day, 3XW.

The question is - how this transcript would change if the turn to follow a shoreline over the water through SEA and BFI class D airspaces needs to be incorporated into scenario?

P.S.:
(click this long link: http://skyvector.com/?ll=47.47231741065 ... 9:V.K1.PAE for a TAC with intended flight plan to appear)