Flying to St. Johns

NCPilot · Post by **NCPilot** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:42 pm

My parent has a Condo in St. John, Virgin Islands, and I'm wondering if a Sport Pilot can fly to the Virgin Islands? It'll probably require some Island hopping due to fuel, but is there anything in the Regs saying that a Sport Pilot can't fly to the Virgin Islands?

ct4me · Post by **ct4me** » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:02 pm

I know the Bahamas just changed their regs to allow Sport Pilots (no-medical)... but don't know if that is true in the Virgin Islands. But then, aren't at least some of the Virgin Islands a US Territory?
Caribbean Sky Tours would be a good place to ask
http://www.caribbeanskytours.com/
also.. this may help
http://www.ctflyer.com/introduce-yourse ... bbean.html

ka7eej · Post by **ka7eej** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:27 am

Tim,
St Johns is about 45 miles east of Taylor. Fly there all the time... LOL IN Arizona!!!!

Brian

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:18 pm

NCPilot:

"...is there anything in the Regs saying that a Sport Pilot can't fly to the Virgin Islands?"

Who's regs?

Your likely route will be via the Exumas (Bahamas, an independent island nation), Provo (Turks & Caicos, a British dependency), perhaps Romano or Samana (Dominican Republic, another independent island nation), and one of many choices on the W to E run over Puerto Rico (U.S. Commonwealth) before arriving in another British dependency (St. Johns).

We've visited all those places, most of them multiple times. Among all the weather, ATC, customs & immigration details, plus the lodging costs along the way, the classification of your aircraft isn't likely to even be something an official would know to think about. Not everywhere in the world is like the U.S.

NCPilot · Post by **NCPilot** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:47 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:NCPilot:

"...is there anything in the Regs saying that a Sport Pilot can't fly to the Virgin Islands?"

Who's regs?

Your likely route will be via the Exumas (Bahamas, an independent island nation), Provo (Turks & Caicos, a British dependency), perhaps Romano or Samana (Dominican Republic, another independent island nation), and one of many choices on the W to E run over Puerto Rico (U.S. Commonwealth) before arriving in another British dependency (St. Johns).

We've visited all those places, most of them multiple times. Among all the weather, ATC, customs & immigration details, plus the lodging costs along the way, the classification of your aircraft isn't likely to even be something an official would know to think about. Not everywhere in the world is like the U.S.

Fair enough, I was just trying to make sure I do thinks by the book.

From what my parents tell me, it's a beautiful place, so I look forward to doing Island hopping and taking pictures.

3Dreaming · Post by **3Dreaming** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:55 am

Jack Tyler wrote:NCPilot:

"...is there anything in the Regs saying that a Sport Pilot can't fly to the Virgin Islands?"

Who's regs?

Your likely route will be via the Exumas (Bahamas, an independent island nation), Provo (Turks & Caicos, a British dependency), perhaps Romano or Samana (Dominican Republic, another independent island nation), and one of many choices on the W to E run over Puerto Rico (U.S. Commonwealth) before arriving in another British dependency (St. Johns).

We've visited all those places, most of them multiple times. Among all the weather, ATC, customs & immigration details, plus the lodging costs along the way, the classification of your aircraft isn't likely to even be something an official would know to think about. Not everywhere in the world is like the U.S.

Jack, it is not a problem with the airplane, but the pilot. A sport pilot does not meet ICAO standards. Since as you pointed out many of these islands are governed by different countries, the rules that you have to fly under are to ICAO standards. This is the reason a sport pilot couldn't do this. A PP in a LSA would not have a problem. Tom

jnmeade · Post by **jnmeade** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:32 am

3Dreaming wrote:Jack, it is not a problem with the airplane, but the pilot. A sport pilot does not meet ICAO standards. Since as you pointed out many of these islands are governed by different countries, the rules that you have to fly under are to ICAO standards. This is the reason a sport pilot couldn't do this. A PP in a LSA would not have a problem. Tom

Kind of getting in late here. By sport pilot do you mean anyone exercising sport pilot privileges or only people with a sport pilot certificate?

When you say a PP (or better) can fly an LSA there, do you mean with a class 3 or better medical or even without a medical (thus exercising sport pilot privileges)?

Sorry if I missed this earlier.

3Dreaming · Post by **3Dreaming** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:20 am

jnmeade wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:Jack, it is not a problem with the airplane, but the pilot. A sport pilot does not meet ICAO standards. Since as you pointed out many of these islands are governed by different countries, the rules that you have to fly under are to ICAO standards. This is the reason a sport pilot couldn't do this. A PP in a LSA would not have a problem. Tom
Kind of getting in late here. By sport pilot do you mean anyone exercising sport pilot privileges or only people with a sport pilot certificate?

When you say a PP (or better) can fly an LSA there, do you mean with a class 3 or better medical or even without a medical (thus exercising sport pilot privileges)?

Sorry if I missed this earlier.

PP would have to have a medical is my understanding.

rsteele · Post by **rsteele** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:30 pm

St. Johns is a US Virgin Island. Wouldn't all the U.S. reg's apply there? What am I missing?

I can see where island hopping to get there may be an issue, although The Bahamas and Puerto Rico, also a US territory, should be O.K

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:42 pm

Even assuming the countries involved will allow Sport Pilots to fly there (or even if we're talking Pvt or above with a medical certificate), I can think of three areas of required equipment/documentation with which most LSAs don't comply:
(1) FCC radio station license. Not required when flying in the US, but required just about everywhere else.
(2) FCC radiotelephone operator's permit. See above.
(3) 406 MHz digital ELT. Some LSAs have them; most have 121.5 MHz analog. The new ELTs are required in nearly every country except the US.
Also, check your insurance policy very carefully. Mine provides no coverage outside of the US.

Jack Tyler · Post by **Jack Tyler** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:54 pm

"A sport pilot does not meet ICAO standards. Since as you pointed out many of these islands are governed by different countries, the rules that you have to fly under are to ICAO standards. This is the reason a sport pilot couldn't do this."

Please reread my post. What did I say?

When you land on the former NASA runway in Provo, who is going to clear you thru? The Immigration & Customs boys, most likely cousins of someone in the govt. and who might (might not) have a secondary education and who are clueless about ICAO compliance. In fact, your arrival in a GA a/c of any kind will be a bit of an event. Their concerns are that you are legal (re; citizenship - especially that you aren't Haitian since that's where their immigration problems lie), your plane isn't stolen, and that you can pay for your fuel. In Samana, D.R. where donkeys are still one mode of transportation and motoconchos the other one (2 cycle scooters with 2-4 passengers screaming around), the uniforms will be a bit grander and the provincial education of the officers lower...and they most likely won't be able to read English. Their concerns will be that similar except it will be Dominicans trying to escape to Puerto Rico. On arrival in PR you are once again in America (especially when it comes to bureaucracies and the many 3 letter agencies like the FAA). (Mea culpa: Sorry to have confused St. Johns with the BVI's)

My point is that beyond America's borders, out in the real world, not everything is the same - including heavy attention to every nuance of some foreign agency's rules. This route does not require one to clear in/out with the Swiss or the Germans. Even in the Bahamas, and certainly elsewhere until PR, just conducting normal border formalities is a challenge for these island nations. As Americans, one of our provincial beliefs is that rules in every detail must be mastered & understood, and then any foreign official who sees the world differently has to be lectured by us as we set them straight. (I've seen this in 53 countries over the past 11 years. It's just a little slice of who we are...)

Personally, I think this route is problematic for a little plane with limited carrying capacity, tho' I'm sure it can be done if Grandpas and Grandmas do it every year in their 30' sailboats at 1/20th the speed. The logistics along the way are the challenge (will there be aviation fuel? if so, better filter it! how do you find and get to the local Motel 6, whatever it might be? Will they make you go into town to fnalize your clearance in one day and out the next? Probably...) But let's not lose perspective on where we're talking about. Kibitzing about an ICAO classification is the realm of First World bureaucrats.

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:01 pm

Jack Tyler wrote:Kibitzing about an ICAO classification is the realm of First World bureaucrats.

Jack, unless one is planning never to return to the US, it's the FAA bureaucrats I'd be worried about. The Sport Pilot rules very clearly exclude flying internationally, unless specifically authorized by the country in question. FAA knows who has and who has not so authorized. When you re-enter the US and clear customs, don't think for a minute that where you've been won't be communicated back to FAA.

zdc · Post by **zdc** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:53 pm

drseti wrote:
Jack Tyler wrote:Kibitzing about an ICAO classification is the realm of First World bureaucrats.
Jack, unless one is planning never to return to the US, it's the FAA bureaucrats I'd be worried about. The Sport Pilot rules very clearly exclude flying internationally, unless specifically authorized by the country in question. FAA knows who has and who has not so authorized. When you re-enter the US and clear customs, don't think for a minute that where you've been won't be communicated back to FAA.

If no rules were violated in the US, would the FAA have jurisdiction? What department within the FAA does customs communicate your movements with?

drseti · Post by **drseti** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:15 pm

zdc wrote:If no rules were violated in the US, would the FAA have jurisdiction?

I'm no attorney, but it seems likely that a sport pilot departing the US with intent to fly where not authorized is in violation of FARs. The rule is broken at takeoff.

What department within the FAA does customs communicate your movements with?

Post-911, they're all subservient to Department of Homeland Security, and do share data.

zdc · Post by **zdc** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:24 pm

drseti wrote:
zdc wrote:If no rules were violated in the US, would the FAA have jurisdiction?

I'm no attorney, but it seems likely that a sport pilot departing the US with intent to fly where not authorized is in violation of FARs. The rule is broken at takeoff.

What department within the FAA does customs communicate your movements with?
Post-911, they're all subservient to Department of Homeland Security, and do share data.

If you fly a sport plan into a country and the customs/aviation officials don't give a hoot, looks like the visit was authorized by that nations' authorities. I seriously doubt whether anyone in the FAA is checking the status of sport planes entering the US. Most likely the only thing checked by the FAA on inbound flights is whether the flight has a DVFR on file and has been properly identified.